Fate/Zero 21 Reaction

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Comment (17)

  1. for what it’s worth i’m pretty sure it was trying to imply he raped her without outright showing it because it might be to graphic for some people.

    1. That is not at all what happens, not even in the LN where they make Karyiah a way worse person. He strangled her in a fit of blind rage and nothing more.

      1. Those subtle angles did look pretty suggestive though, so it was where my mind immediately went to until it showed that he was just strangling her.
        But UBW and original S/N did do a lot of very similar dancing around what actually happened during those “mana recovery” scenes, that reminded me of this, so I always assumed it was more than just strangling in the original.

  2. Tokoyami sent the duaghter away while the wife was in denial and forced herself to believe the Matous took her. She also did not know Kariyah was fighting to save Sakura and thought he just wanted the grail

    1. Kariya did vaguely tell Aoi to “pray for Sakura” when Rin had her night adventure and he saved her from Caster (Ep. 10). So, Aoi would know he wasn’t doing it for purely selfish reasons. The dilemma comes from the fact that:
      – Kariya is working to undo the “sacrifice” of Sakura being adopted, making all the anguish for nothing & recreating the initial problem the Tohsaka Family had: Sakura was too special as a mage.
      – Aoi is a very traditional person, i.e. her husband Tokiomi can make no wrong decisions, thus accepting Sakura’s return = acknowledging Tokiomi made a mistake.
      – Aoi is feels anguished that her husband gave Sakura away, and since a husband is always correct, she must rationalize the decision. Thus, Aoi blames the Matou’s as the reason for Sakura’s disappearance even if Tokiomi would’ve just given Sakura away to a different family if the Matou didn’t offer.

  3. Kariya was blamed for Tokiomi’s death because he was found with the body (which is pretty sus… sorry) and she already knew when Kariya told her he had joined the war that he was effectively trying to kill her husband. Him, one of her best friends, went out of his way to force himself into a battle effectively in the hopes of killing her husband. Coward that he was, it was more important to him to protect his idealized picture of her and her kids than actually protecting her or respecting her decisions. He’s only slightly above a creepy stalker fan, and honestly maybe not even. And like a creepy stalker who’s been rejected by the object of their obsession, he lashed out to destroy the “imposter”. It’s oversimplifying to say he was never a good person, but he certainly wasn’t as good as he initially appeared. Though with Zouken as your grandfather… he was almost a saint.

    1. though do keep in mind that he’s under intense state of distress with the highs and lows, on top of literal physical pain.

      It’s where all the inhibitions are minimised and reckless decisions are made. Also recognise that the trigger phrase isn’t “I don’t love you” but “You’ve never loved anyone”, one that completely rejected his current physical and emotional pain that he has gone through in the past year. Reminder that zouken fucked with him just before this as well. Kariya is basically hanging by a thread mentally speaking thinking his sacrifices will mean something and not be all for nothing, until that statement. He wanted to play the role of a self sacrificing hero but the world rejected his efforts.

      And what’s the first state of grief? Denial.
      He shot the messenger as his gut reaction.

      1. Kariya is nowhere near as terrible as you paint him out to be, especially not an obsessive stalker. He never tries to stalk the Tohsaka’s; the night he saved Rin, he was looking for opportunities to take out Caster since the Church’s bounty for Caster was still valid. In the LN it’s explicitly stated that he gave up on pursuing Aoi and let Tohsaka marry her because Kariya knew it was impossible to live a domestic life with Aoi under Zouken’s watch. Zouken would’ve wanted Kariya to use Aoi as “breeding stock” for Mages & he didn’t want Aoi to experience the terrible Matou magecraft (insects).
        – Kariya did mention off-handedly the night he saved Rin (Ep. 10) that his goal was to save Sakura and return Aoi’s daughter. This sparks conflicting feelings in Aoi since her friend might kill Tokiomi, Sakura returning brings up buried family issues again, etc.
        – Kariya does fixate on killing Tokiomi but outwardly he still professed the intention to save Sakura so there was no creep factor to witness.
        – He was not a coward, he Protected Aoi by letting her live a comparatively better life with Tokiomi than as the Matou’s are horrifying bug-users & desperate for breeding stock, thus exploiting Aoi. He Respected Aoi’s decision to marry Tokiomi by acting as a DISTANT surrogate uncle, often going out of town on trips.
        – Kariya was simply unambitious & flawed. When he discovered Sakura’s adoption, he naively tried to make a deal with Zouken instead of Swallowing his Pride by asking for Tokiomi’s help & revealing Zouken’s abuse.
        – Kariya lashed out in denial because of Aoi denied his entire existence: “Kariya has never loved anyone, thus all his pain & suffering in the Holy Grail War was for no reason at all.”

        Give the man a break, he was no saint but calling him a “creepy stalker fan” is uncalled for.

  4. Oh also this is ancillary information you’ll basically never get from any of the shows but there being only one successor to a family is due to the previous successor passing on their family crest which simplified is the cumulative collection of every previous successors magic. This is part of why the more generations a mage family has, the stronger they usually are. As the Tohsaka’s abnormally had two children of equally rare capability, they were left with a terrible (for mages) dilemma of choosing one and leaving the other unfulfilled (as a mage). Which is why the matou family’s dying magical lineage was a godsend to them because they could allow both their children to flourish (as mages) by adopting one out to inherit the matou family crest, Kariya is the reason there was a void in the matou lineage to begin with, as he was capable of becoming the successor but chose not to out of hatred for Zouken (iirc). So basically Kariya’s whole dilemma is his own making, albeit not entirely his own fault (I mean… you’ve met Zouken).

    1. The order debate was always between the 2006 Stay Night and this. The UBW version is very obviously meant to be watched as a sequel to Zero, dunno why that was even a poll.